So both Smogon and PO have had polls and suspect threads in the last week for how to handle Swagerplay teams in OU.

Some want it banned for forcing luck, unable to solidly counter without a dedicated poke, and ruining the health of competitive play.

Some don't want it banned citing it's usage is still low ladder gimmicky and can backfire. As well as banning a confusion hax move would start people wanting to ban Paraflinch, Toxicstall, Dynamic Punch etc.

Either way the arguments for and against Swagger seem quite heated about this. So what do you think?

Swagger by itself is not the issue. Although I haven't seen the thread on Smogon, I have the feeling that the issue is the Swagger/Foul Play combo (I will be refering to it as Swagger Play in the rest of this post, cause thats kinda what I call it) with certain Pokes, namely those with Prankster.

I run a Klefkei with Swagger Play, which includes T-Wave. Now this guy is pretty dang predictable. You can either switch to and Espeon and bounce back either the T-wave or the Swagger, forcing it to switch, or switch to a ground type and EQ it (Of course you do have to watch out for Swagger). I find this kind of set gimmicky, and this set is why Klefkei is in OU.

I feel like this is people are more or less Targeting Klefkei for he has the better typing to run this. I think people more or less want Klefkei banned. Which is ridiculous.

Now im not the best one at explaining myself, and what I wrote is probably.....confusing. I think the best way to sum it up is as follows:

-the combos listed do not cause and endless battle
-all the combos have certain drawbacks
-Swagger can come back to bite the user in the butt

If ANYTING, id be more willing to Confusion to have a max turn limit (sort of like sleep, where its...a max of 8? turns?).

Here's Smogon's discussion thread. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sw ... p.3500620/

And PO's http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthr ... Discussion

I skimmed through some of the posts. To me it seems like a Bunch of whining over something...little, but that's me.

I stand by what I said in my last post. Nothing really needs to be banned.

If they're going to ban something confusion related, it should be paralysis+confusion.

Which is pretty much what Klefki does when it's trolling, and from what I understand, Klefki using the combo in conjunction with Foul Play is a large part of what instigated the discussion in the first place. Actually, it seems like a more high risk offensive version of Annoyer tactics to me; at least Klefki doesn't normally run Attract as well. I don't think it needs to be outright banned, because even if it's annoying and somewhat gimmicky, it's still a usable, just not wholly consistent. In fact, I could see a way that it could be used as a form of parashuffling, if it's played right. Even so, it would probably help to have every non-physical pokemon have as low of an attack to help counter it.

…Right, this is just a discussion of banning Swagger from OU? Well, Swagger's main purpose is to be used with Foul Play, so it has more functionality than Confuse Ray, which isn't so much as banned, I think, as it is just a waste of a turn due to inconsistency. This reasoning applies to Flatter as well, because there's nothing to use it with at the moment. Swagger can be beneficial to the target, because it still gets the attack boost. Half of the time, the user benefits from it while the target is confused, but the target can benefit for as long as it's in play, as long as it can survive the confusion and Foul Play, which shouldn't be as big of an issue if the target is a non-physical pokemon who is as physically weak as possible.

So no, I don't think that Swagger, or whatever method involving it unless it can somehow be used to replicate FunBro (however that would work…) should or needs to be banned. It's not invincible, it's just annoying.

To me I'm actually for banning Swagger+Prankster. In large part due to teams like this http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ousus ... t-84950109 (Copied from a post on Smogon's discussion.)

While the non-Swag team won, it shows how much luck must be in your favor to overcome the combination of Swagger/T-wave/Sub. The problem is that it's completely unavoidable to be thrown into the confusion scenario because of the priority, then any miss places you in a deeper hole once their sub is up. If only a single poke on a team employs this then it's not a big problem, but it's the teams of 5-6 of these guys (With the last slot usually going to a Trapper like Gothitelle to remove Taunters/Mbouncers.) That become the ban worthy issue that it is. If they ban Prankster+Swagger the strategy is still viable through fast pokes such as Liepard/Whimiscott just that they'll be capable of being countered by higher speed or Scarf to break the confusion cycle. (So long as they don't come into T-wave.)

If thats the case, then they should ban teams of pokes using Prankster on more than one poke. I do agree with you, facing a team with MULTIPLE users of Prankster is TOO luck dependent (Pokemon is a luck reliant game, but there's luck reliant then theres "luck" reliant). But still, the combo does NOT need to be banned. Just ban the use of more than one Prankster user on the team.

And I fully agree with that, however people are complaining that banning Swagger+Prankster is too complex of a ban as it is. I doubt anyone will go with a ban on multiple Swagger+Prankster on a team.

I personally feel that they shouldn't ban Swagger, cause it sets the dangerous precedent of banning paraflinch, parafusion, etc. With proper prediction and timing you can screw up whatever mon they try to swagger with. It's not that big of a deal.

There's a very easy way of dealing with anything with Prankster. It's called a Lum Berry.

The issue with this is that it only works once, and that's only if you get in cleanly. If you try and switch into a Prankster user that uses Swagger/Sub the lum will be worthless. and in best scenario you can KO one user of the PrankSwag strategy, but against 4-6 on a team it does little to counter it.

Lum+Harvest. Problem solved (oh look something else that kinda relys on luck, better Ban that).

In all seriousness, I think a lot of the Battle Frontier Psypokians can Understand why people would want it banned, but also see this leading to less then optimum outcomes, as stated in the posts by shinashu taji and ChillBill.

What might work better is to make Klefkei's Swag Play (with Sub and lefties) Uber. I run Spikes over Sub on my Klefkei w/ a Focus Sash. This is cause Klefkei's goal isnt to sweep, but to make things easier for my Physcial sweepers (who need set up time). I find that without Sub and lefties Klefkei loses....for a lack of a better term, Trolliness. Klefkei is OU regardless. It has a nice typing and a lot of supporting moves that it can utilize with prankster. Swagger+T-Wave+ Foul Play is an awesome Combo. In my personal opinion, Adding Sub w/ lefties, is what pushes Klefkei into Uber Territory. In Uber I feel like it can still be a threat, but might be threatened more in return. (lets not forget Taunt.)

To sum it up, again. Swagger + Prankster IS NOT BAN WORTHY. This is *in my mind* just people who are too lazy to think, wanting to make things easier for them, by making it overly complicated for everyone else.

I lol'd. Though I have to give him props for combining Swaggerplay with a Ditto. I've played that alongside my Amoonguss before and it can be very effective.

Did he just rage quit cause the confusion didnt last long enough? All this does is prove the point that it shouldnt be banned.

Ummm, no. That just proves the person was a bad sport. Really has no relevance for or against the ban.

Yes there is that, but that was'nt what I meant. I probably should have explained myself better in my last post.

For me, something is ban-able (and when I say BAN, I mean BANNED completely, not moved to uber) when two of the scenarios are met:

-Cause a never ending match that just goes on and on and on (endless)

-There is no Possible way to counter/ check it

In my Mind Swagger does not do either. Even a Full team Of swagger abusers doesnt meet this. Yes Confusion is HEAVILY luck reliant. Yes, in some cases it could match longer (but not endless), but thats if both are using the same "all my pokemon use swagger" routine.

Which seems to be the main question with Smogon's and PO's debates: How luck reliant does something have to be in order for it to be banned out of play? Evasion and OHKO were banned under similar reasons as what's putting PranksterSwag teams (Though by extension of the move Swagger) up for suspect now, how far can a coinflip strategy go before being called uncompetitive?

That is indeed the question.

Evasion I can understand. At the moment I can only think of two moves that can counter evasion, if one's only Taunt user fainted, and that's Aerial Ace and Shock Wave.

Swagger+Prankster for me is harder to see a ban up to Uber. I can see certain sets on certain pokes being banned to Uber (such as Klefeki). Swagger+Prankster in my mind.....is easier to counter than evasion was.

Keep in mind this gen made roar and whirlwind bypass evasion as well as the rise of defog. Also body slam hits minimizers for double.

Ah, okay, I was unaware of roar, Whirlwind and Body Slam doing that.

I personally feel Evasion is More of a luck variant than what swagger does.

Swagger is 50/50. Evasion's Luck variant is worse, being dependent not only on how many evades it has on it, but also the accuracy of the move being used against it.

I think what needs to be done is take a close look at the pokes that run Swagger+Prankster and look at common sets for them, and determine if any of these sets are Uber material. Of course if enough of it's sets are Uber worthy ban that Poke to Uber. I think this would work better than just out right banning Swagger+ Prankster altogether.