I was thinking about making this Vaporeon:

@ leftovers
Water absorb
EVs: 252Hp 252Spedef 4 spatk
Baton pass
Aqua ring
Surf
Substitute

Vaporeon has good HP so baton passing substitutes was my first plan, but I noticed it also learns aqua ring. Now baton pass passes on ingrain does anyone know whether it will pass over aqua ring?

Yeah, it does. Regarding the Substitute; make Vaporeon't HP 404+, ideally, so you can Baton Pass unbreakable Substitutes.

The idea is that if you use Substitute with a Pokemon with 404HP, they get a Sub that amounts to 101 HP, meaning that it won't be broken by one Seismic Toss. This may seem a little pedantic, but when you're against a Seismic Tossing Blissey, well...

Hmm...a Baton Passers uses up a slot in your team. So in my opinion a Baton passer really must be worth the investment. Vaporeon is slow and can't baton pass much (If you compare it with pokemon like Ninjask, Gorebyss, Togekiss) so it really isn't worth it.

Wait what? Vaporeon may not be fast, but it has tanking abilities to get it's passes off. Ninjask on the other hand is extremely fast, and very Very rarely successfully baton passes. (Gorebyss isn't even BL) You have to have something like u-turn to bait switches/scout and wear down the opponent before you can get a pass out form him, and he has to do it without getting ice sharded, and not to mention sandstream and stealth rock.

That said, Aqua ring isn't all that special. If I were you I'd be passing something more like acid armor, or wish. Acid armor gives you a shot at surviving a physical switch in, and wish doesn't even require you manage a baton pass.

Unless you have some insanely awesome tank that just needs to regenerate a little bit more per turn, which would be awesome honestly.

Ah that's where you're wrong my friend...Gorebyss is a great baton passer...if and only if you understand how turns work out completely and you don't send it out on someone who has a Stab bonus electric/grass type attack...an Agility allows it to use an Iron Defense or Amnesia right after that...and if you max out its Defenses it won't faint when the opponent whacks it after it used Iron Defense/Amnesia and you can just baton pass to another Pokemon. Seriously, this requires trying out b4 you can see the effectiveness. Ninjask isn't a Bad Baton Passer at all, infact, I would say it's the best. It just has to be the lead Pokemon so that Stealth Rocks won't get it. As for Sandstormers you're just unlucky if you see one as a lead.

Well, I don't know who you've battled, but in my circle, Ninjasks never did anything except die, get phazed, or pass to something that gets phazed.

Even if they were the lead, switch in skarm or hippo and it's completely harmless. Ninjask is good for like...Cradily maybe. Ninjask just doesn't hurt physical tanks, and a lot of them have whirlwind/roar And stealth rock. You can't just lead with him then sub to build up speed, you have to get more creative. It can't be used in the beginning as a baton passer, unless your opponent doesn't have a very well rounded team.

Now don't get me wrong, I actually like Ninjask, I'm breeding for one soon. But the old Sub, SD, BP, X-scisor stuff doesn't cut it.

Gorebyss might be neat, I'll say that. I'll also say this is the first time I've heard of one ever being used, and that someone seems to think they are UU. So I'll just leave that one alone. I personally love agility on baton passers.

To reiterate what Faceless said: Ninjask is Skarmbait. Basically, a (p)hazer can come in without much harm only fearing a boosted X-Scissor. Again, being that it's "coincidence" that most phazers are physical sponges, they aren't going to fear that.

Sure, (back to Vaporeon) Substitutes can be Roared out as well, but at least Vaporeon can Wish so that its efforts aren't wasted. Still, I'd rather have Substitutes baton passed from Vaporeon than Ninjask, and I hope you realize why.

For baton passing Agility, I'd go with Scizor because it attracts Fire attacks like candy. BP to a LO-Heatran, grab the Flash Fire boost and +2 Speed from Scizor and destroy stuff with Fire Blast.

Dude, that's exactly my point. You're so awesome.

You even brought up scizor like I wanted to.

I was a bit surprised that Sapp, who likes to bring up order of turns a lot, didn't realize that the baton pass wouldn't work.

I hope alk doesn't mind me embarrassing him a little here. He and one other person didn't like that as a group we kinda labeled Ninjask as BL. So they were using them. Different sets, one was the protect sash and one was sub berry I think.

They in general got trashed pretty bad. Occasionally they'd get off the lucky baton pass and of course they'd mostly thrash noobs, but ninjask was a massive liability to them and they both agreed they had made a mistake.

Lol Baton Pass does work on Ninjask. I'm quite sure that's the case. Pokemon who have higher Speeds than their opponent get to use another move right after they used Protect/Detect/Endure. So the procedure goes like this: Swords Dance 1st, Opponent whacks the Ninjask, Ninjask survives with 1 Hp because of Focus sash, Speed Boost raises Ninjask's Speed, Ninjask uses Protect, opponent's move fails, Speed boost raises Ninjask's Speed again and the next turn Ninjask is able to use Baton Pass Immediately.

Hmm...if I'm not wrong, people switch to Skarmory once they see a Ninjask right? That means we can easily lure out the Skarmory, take it out, and use Ninjask as a Baton Passer without having to fear of being Roared/Blown away. I seldom see Hazers by the way, and that's most probably because Haze takes up a Slot and the Pokemon ho can learn that fare much better with other moves.

That's what I've been talking about the whole time.

You're basically saying that all that's for 1 boost in speed. Anyway beside that, skarm/hippo/suicune/snorlax with whirlwind ect still force Ninjask to switch out, which defeated your whole argument to begin with.

It goes first turn, you sword dance for sash, they Switch you protect against a phaze, then they phaze, or They outsmart you and lay rocks. And then they Phaze you, baton pass or whatever you've lost the advantage of moves.

You can't switch to anything that KOs the phazer that comes in unless you predict the phaser and use it for advantage of position. And aside from that, you're Still in trouble if they open with gyara. You seem to not remember that the Reason you said he had to be the lead was so there would be no rocks, but then he has to immediately switch out because of pokemon that are probably gonna lay rocks. Beyond that, on of them is also a sandstream pokemon which negates the purpose of sash. (Hippo is also one of the most common lead pokemon on shoddy, more relevant to some than others I guess)

(Order is: Sworddance:switch to phazer, baton pass:Phaze, Random pokemon with no stat boost:phazer) Alternatively you could get taunted the first turn and be left only with a sad sad x-scissor.

It's Not easy to get around those things by just going first you need to be careful, or even lucky. And the effort put into it kinda negates a lot of the whole purpose of having it to begin with. I like ninjask, it can still be used I'm thinking, but there's no getting around the fact that as a lead they are gonna Have to switch.

Saying a pokemon isn't countered by saying it could be used as bait for a counter is not quite right, but the truth of it is completely consistent with what I've been saying, it's Not easy to get that baton pass out and it won't happen during the opening of the match, barring random and weird Hax.

How do you play with people's minds when it's Swords Dance/Baton Pass/Protect/X-Scissor or another Substitute variation? This is not Salamence we are talking about: Ninjasks are predictable.

On the turn 1, your opponent is going to switch to a Taunter or a phazer (if one isn't already out) expecting you to Swords Dance, what the heck do you do then? Again, being that most phazers happen to be physical sponges, Vaporeon can hit them for decent damage with Surf/Ice Beam... do you guys forget that this is a Vaporeon thread? Vappy is sad. :(

Unless you're carrying a surprise sweeper in Swords Dance/Baton Pass/X-Scissor/Aerial Ace, you're not tricking people's minds. Forcing switches aren't that helpful since Ninjask can't lay down rocks or spikes.

Forcing switching and playing around with peoples minds, yeah that's Really good at baton passing.

Except, you know, none of that has to do with baton passing. The role is completely different, the uses are completely different and None of your defenses apply to this, and your initial assertion is not supported by this. Ninjask is still usable, but I still you should admit you were wrong and/or lying/misspeaking.

And back to the Vaporeon as advised. Vaporeon is great, it can heal, it can tank, it can stab surf, it can switch In on a stab surf and heal 25% hp, and it can baton pass the wish and/or defense. Though if it only has wish I don't see much reason for having baton pass. There aren't a lot of baton passers that can work OU and maybe even vaporeon is better saved till mid to late game, but he's got a lot going for him.

Though I think the topic creator long since ran away from our bickering.

Sigh....Ninjask is able to do both what I said it could do and als o baton pass at the same time. Know why? baton passing the very 1st turn does no harm to Ninjask at all. And since we're expecting the opponent to switch then the Pokemon that gets Baton passed out isn't gonna get hurt. So if we're expecting a Skarmory, then we Pass to a Heatren etc. and from there you can predict what the foes's gonna do and do even more damage. There's still a lot more to this but I really don't feel like explaining. And if we're Lucky, we get to KO the Phazer or the one that's supposed to Counter Passers. With the counter taken out, what's stopping a Ninajsk from Baton Passing?

Yes, but then what is the point in having it there at all?

Go Ninjask!
Go Electivire!

(Hm, he might have a Skarmory, I'll switch now!)

Return Ninjask!
Go Heatran!
Electivire used Banded Thunder punch!
Heatran lost 50%+ of its health!

So...what was the point in having Ninjask there if you end up 'predicting' and then getting it wrong? Send out Ninjask, predict a switch to a Phazer, then you've just wasted a turn.

I can see the logic, but it hinges on you getting it right. It seems entirely pointless to lead with a BPasser if you're going to switch immediately on the idea of baiting a Skarmory.

Or, if I've misunderstood and it goes like this:

Ninjask used Swords Dance!
Player switched out to Skarmory!

Ninjask used BPass to Heatran!
Skarmory used Whirlwind!

Skarmory would switch in for the sole purpose of Whirlwinding, you wouldn't be able to combat it if you didn't switch immediately.

But regarding Vaporeon...I think it's alright, but suffers the same fate as Ninjask. Really, a BPasser needs to have an electric attack to combat such phasers as Skarmory effectively (while it loses the turn thanks to Whirlwind.)

Baton Passers are just pretty crap overall.

Ah huh, if the opponent didn't switch to a Skarmory or phazer then it basically means it doesn't have one. Who the hell will wait for Ninjask to do it's job? That's all the more merrier isn't it? A small price to pay for finding out. Anyway, to bait a Skarmory of phazer, you don't use Swords dance 1st. You Baton Bass on the very 1st turn. I would like to ask though. Is using up a slot in your team for a vaporeon that can only pass on a Aqua Ring once, not forgetting the fact that the Pokemon that gets switched out will take at least a Blow from the opponent before it can attack, worth it?

Wow, I didn't think a simple moveset would cause so much debating.

Anyway after seeing these comments I feel that a batton passing could still work, however instead of aqua ring maybe acid armour or wish instead?

If you Baton Pass on the first turn when the opponent switches in Skarmory/Hippwodon/(enter phazer/physical tank here), it's going to set up rocks and Ninjask wouldn't like coming in later on in the game. So that opens another door: you have a spinner on your team too, right, Sapphirath? [Insert Dusknoir]

Vaporeon, unlike Ninjask can do something else besides baton passing. It can soak up (literally) water attacks and do reasonably well against Grass Knots (I believe it's 40 Base Power against it). It can pass extremely bulky substitutes while Wishing to provide team support. Vaporeon is for a team whose members can set up for themselves but welcome those bulky substitutes so set-up behind. Ninjask is for those teams who members don't set-up for themselves. I'm not saying Ninjasks are bad and Vaporeons are good, but it's just a matter a preference in the case.

Baton passing Substitutes and maybe an Acid Armor would be the best options for Vaporeon. Though limited, don't take it lightly: again, giving the rest of your team bulky Substitutes and Defense +2 would allow themselves to set up with ease. However, you'll see Wish instead of Acid Armor because Vaporeon's efforts won't be entirely wasted, should it be phazed/hazed out. Something like Baton Pass/Substitute/Wish/Surf will do.

You're argument Used to be that if you're worried about stealth rocks and sandstream all you have to do is use ninjask as a lead to get a Guaranteed increased speed and attack baton pass. When we explained that is not true you changed your position to my position and tried to use it to cover the fact that you had made a mistake.

Also, baton passing the first turn Is more dangerous than just switching, since it has nothing to pass it just doesn't seem like a good idea. It's more dangerous because Ice shard and quick attack Do appear on OU pokemon and they beat baton pass.

Now to Vaporeon again, I've been thinking more and it's a big bonus to be able to acid armor and surf as even possibilities with vaporeon. Most phazers like hippo are physically based, and take good damage from stabbed surf because hey are also physical defense oriented, making it hard to stop vaporeon from doing it's job. Only two weaknesses help, and I don't know about everywhere else, but grassknot is what I see more often.

1: because you admitted yourself that it Has To Switch Out (and stealth rocks only does damage when you switch in not out ;D), and to be of any further use it has to switch in later, which means making it the lead Does Nothing to Protect it from stealth rock. Your deduction is only logical if you ignore your own arguments. You had two almost dead weight pokemon and I had a lot of mediocre pokemon and it pretty balanced out in our matches, which I enjoyed they were both very close. Also baiting isn't even a real argument, Ninjask has many counters and pokemon with fewer counters would work better for baiting, also baiting works worse as a lead because you don't even know if the target is on the team, which is why I advocate u-turn.
2:You brought up being the lead as a counter to stealth rocks, and said that ninjask was the best baton passer if it was a lead and you offered a moveset and a strategy, so if it was not a way to ensure a baton pass would more likely happen your argument is Still wrong. The strategy was a dud, the moveset was dangerous, and when you admited it'd have to switch out you eliminated the purpose of making it the lead in the first place.
3:Yes there are always flaws in strategies, that's why OU pokemon usually counter a lot of pokemon(blissey) or are hard to counter for the most part (Garchomp). Ninjask is little different because it's really easy to counter. It has to be used in a way where baton passing is not it's primary function, which we agreed on after we proved extensively that you were completely wrong about ninjask being the best if you just lead with it. Your strategy offered Also failed to deal with it's counter and you had to come up with the real strategy after making the mistake of asserting the baton pass strategy.

So we can agree to agree and disagree about everything we do after you admit you were wrong, because well you Were Wrong. Your proposed strategy at least was a dud, and I'd like an apology personally, because you've some rather mean comments and avoided the fact that'd you been wrong for a long time, which I find disrespectful. I don't like these arguments we get into, and so far I think it's pretty overt that you were mistaken in the last two (Tyranniboah does not suck, and your ironicly named quick feet usaring set is not the best facader). This one we agreed on partly, but you made a mistake, and I rather not let people think you were right and make the same mistake.

Perhaps I got confused when you said Ninjask was a baton passer that you'd say was the best, you see I thought you gauge that by it's ability to baton pass. Vaporeon at the very least can get a wish hanging in the air before being forced to switch, or try and tough it out with buffs. In my opinion Subs and defensive passes are more universally useful and safer to pass than even speed passes. And I think vaporeon has the stuff to do it more consistently than most baton passers.

Also I believe I did mention ways of improving the vaporeon set listed. The set needed revision.

Are the EVs ok? Cuz I was thinking of using the exact same moveset for Vaporeon (Baton Pass/Substitute/Wish/Surf). I just don't know a good EV spread (and nature) for it though...

Is it possible for Vaporeon to substitute 'substitute' for a different move and still be effective?

Hope that I could be a baton passer.